User Groups

[ReesesPieces]

I recently asked Adi about possibly adding usergroups such as Developer, and other miscellaneous groups. I saw a post already previously made regarding this issue, but it didn't get anywhere. His main concern was that it would be hard to tell who is and who isn't so, I would say we could make requirements, make a team, and they appoint people by simplying messaging Adi to add them. Let's hear your thoughts!

[Adi]

That's correct, I think the idea is somewhat reasonable but then again, we don't want users to be in a usergroup that they shouldn't have, in this case, a developer.

@ReesesPieces suggested adding this one not only because it would help to identify who's an actual dev and who's not but also because it will motivate more users to contribute which is a good idea, in my opinion, it has its pros and cons but can definitely contribute in some areas of this community, not just private server area.

 

With that being said, I do want to hear more thoughts on this from the rest of the community.

So please, by all means, feel free to share your thoughts. 

[BitShift]

I like the idea and I agree that it will help motivate people who want to obtain a title like that. We could even have different "level"s where contributing so much allows you to jump to the next level as a developer and people can see that in your title. This would help motivate people to continuously contribute until they obtain the highest possible level within a title (which should basically be reserved for people like twostars, etc). The hard part about this is clearly defining the requirements for being a developer and the requirements for each of the potential levels. I'm sure people will have differing opinions on what a developer looks like, and that's something we'd need a majority to agree on if there is any chance of this working. The conclusions from such a discussion should be written up and posted along with the announcement of the title, that way people know exactly what is required before they start working towards a title/level. If the requirements aren't well defined we are just going to piss people off and it's going to be a mess. Also there is the problem of verifying that the person actually did they work and they aren't just taking credit for someone else's work. What would be really cool is if I (or whoever) would conduct interviews via Skype with people talking with them about their project and let them explain what they have been working on, and these interviews could be posted publicly for the community to watch (or listen). Obviously if I press a person with questions on how their project works and they have no idea how it works then it's likely they didn't build it themselves, it's a pretty simple test and will prevent people from submitting bullshit because otherwise it will be a bit embarrassing for them. Also this helps set the bar for people because they can listen to previous interviews and get a feel for what is expected of them. It is also important not to set the bar too high or intimidate people, that would defeat the whole point. This shouldn't be some elite group of people who are better than everyone. It should be fun for everyone who wants to be involved!

 

EDIT: Thinking more about it I think a "twostars" level isn't a good idea. All the levels (if we even decide levels are a good idea) should be obtainable within the span of a year at most (I'd say)

Edited July 12, 2017 by BitShift

[Adi]

Additionally, we can add a Group Legend plugin at the bottom of the homepage, showing all groups etc.

 

However, I think we have to indeed think of solid requirements and what kind of usergroups we want besides developer?

There are different ways to contribute here besides releasing content within the private server section, I believe we can all agree on this.

 

For instance, what @ForcePower did doesn't necessarily mean every guide he posted was his own but he did contribute by sharing it which seems quite helpful in my opinion.

The other day, another user contacted me regarding the forum's background, said he would work on something. If and once he get something sorted, it could fall under a contribution as well, don't you think?

 

 

What are the requirements you think of for devs? 

[HenkaN]

3 hours ago, Adi said:

What are the requirements you think of for devs? 

As for the 'Developer' group it would make sense if the current mod in the section BitShift would have the ability to promote/demote to and within that group (if ranking applies within). Feels like he's a good fit to make the decision if a user qualifies as a 'Developer' or not.

Feels like rather him or anyone else involved in Development then an Admin or Global Mod (no offence, i have no clue if you're into KO Development or not). Just my opinion to keep it as simple as possible, and it would require BitShift or someone else to be willing to do it ;p

[ReesesPieces]

BitShift or I we both have been around a while so, we know who is who and more importantly understand what it takes in our eyes to be in that group.

[BitShift]

12 hours ago, ReesesPieces said:

BitShift or I we both have been around a while so, we know who is who and more importantly understand what it takes in our eyes to be in that group.

Yeah, and honestly this could be quite a bit of work (depending on how many people are interested) and so having two people work together on this might be best. @ReesesPieces and I can work together on it, I'm fine with that.

 

@Adi: I'm planning to write up a longer response to your other questions tomorrow. Until then I'd like to know what @Gilad, @ForcePower, @onurcanbektas, @Kinda, @smooth, @fr33m4n, @Demircivi , @JanekBack , and anyone else interested think.

[Janek]

I'm for this =)

[ForcePower]

Sorry guys for being inactive this days.. i am after a second difficult surgery.

I support this idea, also, I would like to assist @BitShift and @ReesesPieces for the reason , we are there for long time (personally I am in the KO development scene since 2006.)

So , I feel we can figure out who deserve to be in the group and who is not.

@Adi thanks for mention what I`ve done , that's right I did not write most of the contexts that I`ve posted but I have decent amount of information I shared with the community from my work, also assist a lot of people in snoxd (I hope i will find the time to document all questions nd problems that was asked there and write their solution , even thought that all stored in my mind ^^ ).

[United]

Just keep it simple.

[BitShift]

On 7/13/2017 at 7:47 AM, Adi said:

what kind of usergroups we want besides developer?

I'm not really sure about this. I'd imagine if we needed additional groups the need would become obvious over time. A simple "developer" group without any levels or anything like that might be a good place to start in order to test the idea and see if it is worth setting up (like beta test the idea basically). For the requirements, I think having a thread (not public) in the private server section for people to privately post their projects and describe why they should be in the group would work. From there @ReesesPieces, @ForcePower, and I can vote and comment to their application with our decisions. That would help in case there is any disagreement between @ReesesPieces, @ForcePower, and I. If you get at least 2 out of the 3 votes then we'll add you. And if you don't make it we'll describe why and what you can add to the project in order to pass, and they can resubmit. Once passed I'll contact them and setup a short time when they can explain their project and what they have learned along the way, etc., and I'll post those interviews for everyone.

 

On 7/13/2017 at 7:47 AM, Adi said:

There are different ways to contribute here besides releasing content within the private server section

I think for this it would be better if people recommended others for this and they were given a reward for their contributions. So this would be more of a reward instead of a group.

This makes me think of another thing. We could have monthly events for the developers group (like game jams or something). Actually that might not be a bad idea in general, like we could host KO4LIFE game jams.

 

2 hours ago, Andrej said:

Just keep it simple.

I agree with this, whatever it is it should be simple.

Edited July 16, 2017 by BitShift

[BitShift]

25 minutes ago, BitShift said:

we could host KO4LIFE game jams.

More to this point I (or someone, because I am quite busy) could actually write a platform via Duktape that would allow people to make games using KO assets without knowledge of C/C++, using just Javascript. Getting it to the point where you could make a complete game would take a long long time but for little game-jam like stuff it wouldn't take all that much.

Edited July 16, 2017 by BitShift

[Gilad]

To be honest, i was never a fan of these stuffs, with no intention being negative. Differentiating members from other members, like it was in snoxd back then with the "Respected" group. But if that's what makes people more motivated and feel good about being in a special user group, I would say, why not as long as it doesn't consume too much attention from the new upcoming members. 

[Adi]

Well then, it's either keep it a badge like the one @ForcePower has (perhaps rework it, make it just an icon? same thing applies on "verified") or just implement different user groups for devs/contributors etc. but that might indeed consume too much attention from new members as @Gilad mentioned above.

 

If we go with usergroups, that brings us to what I asked earlier, what will the requirements be for such a usergroup?

Other types of contributors -> not a big deal I guess, but devs? I think it has to be solid enough and straight forward for what a 'dev' is considered within our site.

[LionRoar]

what happened with this discussion? stopped for some reason..?

 

i would like to add that i think adding different donation tiers might be a good idea too, for example:

Donor - 5.00~14.99$?

Super Donor - 15.00~39.99$?

Extreme Donor - 40.00~74.99$

 

just throwing it out, the donation value doesn't have to be exactly like this, it will motivate users to donate more than once because based on what I've seen some users just donate once to have this fancy color around their names and that's pretty much it.. it's not like they keep donating every now and then ? correct me if im wrong..

 

one more idea but this is a bit off topic is to make the donor tag a temporary thing (5$ - 1month, 15$ - 4month, 20$ 6month and so on)..

[United]

Some people just donate 5$ for the donator rank, which is not that cool if i was the admin.

I'm prolly one of the first donators and top donator also and i don't care about the rank, i simply want to help community. I would donate more but some of the things i want to be on the forums and how i see it don't have enough support or feedback.

[Adi]

16 hours ago, LionRoar said:

what happened with this discussion? stopped for some reason..?

 

i would like to add that i think adding different donation tiers might be a good idea too, for example:

Donor - 5.00~14.99$?

Super Donor - 15.00~39.99$?

Extreme Donor - 40.00~74.99$

 

just throwing it out, the donation value doesn't have to be exactly like this, it will motivate users to donate more than once because based on what I've seen some users just donate once to have this fancy color around their names and that's pretty much it.. it's not like they keep donating every now and then ? correct me if im wrong..

 

one more idea but this is a bit off topic is to make the donor tag a temporary thing (5$ - 1month, 15$ - 4month, 20$ 6month and so on)..

Well, I asked a question about what users in here think about the requirements for the specific usergroup @ReesesPieces suggested on (developer).

It could be useful and motivate users to contribute more but then again, we can't just go ahead and hand over such a title to anyone just because they "claim" to be a developer or supposedly know a thing or two about private servers, right?

 

He meant for additional usergroups and not just Developer but developer specifically must have some strict requirements, solid enough to decide whether someone should carry such a title or not.

 

As for the donation part, it might be a good idea to add tiers (what others think about this one?.)

I know some users donated just for the title and didn't donate ever since but then again, this is a donation, making the usergroup given with it a temporary thing makes it some sort of subscription and not a donation so I don't see myself changing it to a temporary thing at this stage.

There are some users who donated more than once though, @Dylan @BitShift @Gilad @0RC and for that, I tip my hat off to them, they didn't donate the same amount of money but doing it more than once especially when that title isn't temporary isn't necessarily obvious.

 

 

16 hours ago, Andrej said:

Some people just donate 5$ for the donator rank, which is not that cool if i was the admin.

I'm prolly one of the first donators and top donator also and i don't care about the rank, i simply want to help community. I would donate more but some of the things i want to be on the forums and how i see it don't have enough support or feedback.

8

Truth to be told, I don't exactly mind whether you donate 5$ or 50$, any donation is appreciated and of course the higher the better as it will help us in the future with events/maintaining the site up and running. I don't benefit from these donations in any way, I do believe that if our site was crowded with hundreds of users and we kept getting good & fair donations then I would've splitted it between the staff and start doing events on a weekly/monthly basis but this is something we'll have to think of in the future, I hope.

 

Yes, you are the first donator (first donation we received, on the very same day we launched ko4life.net), that's true. 

As for things you suggested, only thing I can see that didn't go live yet is the banner advertising you suggested on, I openly discussed it with the rest of the site as you can see we just had a little issue about what if two different users would like to rent a specific banner in a specific week? you can share a solution in there if you have one and I'm more than willing to move ahead with it, this just like the developer usergroup has to be strict and have solid rules.

[BitShift]

15 minutes ago, Adi said:

the requirements for the specific usergroup @ReesesPieces suggested on (developer).

This is a tough one because people could be working on opposites ends of the spectrum (e.g. developing C++ engine stuff vs. KO web panels, etc.). As a baseline for discussion I say we put together a standardized test for the title developer. As a rough idea (again setting a baseline for discussion here) this test could include two major questions:

1. Determine where in the given file (provide them with file) a modification to the standard KO .n3pmesh format has been made (provide them with .n3pmesh format if they don't already know it)
2. Create a simple web panel which connects to a MySQL database and displays player's ordered by NP points

The idea should be that you (a) shouldn't be able to find the answers online and (b) should know more than the basic "Hello World!" type stuff. Again this is a very basic idea and I am curious what other people think.

 

[United]

I donated some more now, I think forum has a lot of potential but i care about KO players and  it's not being advertised enough for those.

I would help advertising the forum, if i knew for what. If you added 2 banners up there for fair starting price i'd be glad to send KO Traffic over here, as my team is specialized for ko advertising, free of charge

Oh and veteran thing is also cool.

[Dylan]

i don't really mind, the donor gives perks, the reason we donate is to help the forum

not for a Donor tag

[Warmonger]

On 8/26/2017 at 11:07 AM, BitShift said:

This is a tough one because people could be working on opposites ends of the spectrum (e.g. developing C++ engine stuff vs. KO web panels, etc.). As a baseline for discussion I say we put together a standardized test for the title developer. As a rough idea (again setting a baseline for discussion here) this test could include two major questions:

1. Determine where in the given file (provide them with file) a modification to the standard KO .n3pmesh format has been made (provide them with .n3pmesh format if they don't already know it)
2. Create a simple web panel which connects to a MySQL database and displays player's ordered by NP points

The idea should be that you (a) shouldn't be able to find the answers online and (b) should know more than the basic "Hello World!" type stuff. Again this is a very basic idea and I am curious what other people think.

 

I'm game, give me the structure of any file and I'll build a tool to parse it. On the flip side I agree that there are different realms of interest for some. During my time developing for LastChaos I have met people only interested in scripting websites. Meanwhile they were oblivious of working with anything that compiles to machine code. I guess that doesn't demean them however I think an actual developer should be able to do both and do both well. If you cannot do both then obviously you wouldn't even be able to open up your own server without it being glued together. You would also have to isolate peoples submissions and lay groundwork so they acknowledge that they cannot release how to accomplish said criteria afterwards as it would become easy for anyone to just reference the how-to and modify it to their own liking to submit for a community badge. There's a lot to think about when it comes to testing peoples capabilities.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Warmonger

[ReesesPieces]

Irregardless, it doesn't matter what they release, contributing to the community in ways that helps is what is important. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by ReesesPieces

[Adi]

5 hours ago, Warmonger said:

There's a lot to think about when it comes to testing peoples capabilities.

Exactly my point.

 

Which is why I believe that we should have strict rules for someone to hold such title and owning a private server shouldn't be one.

 

Even though I was never really involved in private servers, I can tell that there are/were countless server owners which knew nothing about developing, yet claimed to be devs.

 

My opinion? We should either award contributors with a badge of some sort or add a usergroup called "Contributor" and give it away after seeing a user contributing enough, being loyal and helpful to the community.

This of course, could be given to devs who post helpful content or users who can contribute in other ways (e.g. sharing non-developing related guides)

[HenkaN]

1 hour ago, Adi said:

My opinion? We should either award contributors with a badge of some sort or add a usergroup called "Contributor" and give it away after seeing a user contributing enough, being loyal and helpful to the community.

 

 

+1, best way to 'prove' being worth it.

[Warmonger]

10 hours ago, Adi said:

Exactly my point.

 

Which is why I believe that we should have strict rules for someone to hold such title and owning a private server shouldn't be one.

 

Even though I was never really involved in private servers, I can tell that there are/were countless server owners which knew nothing about developing, yet claimed to be devs.

 

My opinion? We should either award contributors with a badge of some sort or add a usergroup called "Contributor" and give it away after seeing a user contributing enough, being loyal and helpful to the community.

This of course, could be given to devs who post helpful content or users who can contribute in other ways (e.g. sharing non-developing related guides)

Indeed, there's been countless private servers started up by people who use work from others online to glue together a private server in the 8+ years that I have developed this and other games. It's like that for many games, people typically do it for a cash grab. Shut the server down a month later and then reopen it as if was some other new server entirely. So I understand that just because you own a server doesn't entitle you to any special privileges. Unless of course maybe you run the most successful server out there. Which still doesn't meet criteria imo unless they contribute to the greater cause of the community. I was going to say something similar along the lines of just creating the group and dropping people into it as they post and prove themselves. I also thought that such a group is not even necessary. I mean the community has activity but the creation of new content is scarce and this forum has been up for months now I presume? I feel like a specialized group would just be an incentive that would go unfulfilled. I mean what's the sense in having that recognition when there's not that much activity. If it's one thing that I have witnessed multiple times among different games is that once a source code base is put out there among the public, development communities die. Unless it's a vastly popular game with a bunch of people contributing to one specific code base. Everyone else is interested in just downloading the source and modifying it to their liking behind closed doors. That seems to of happened with KO ever since the initial base Twostars worked on was put out there and now we have all kinds of source spins from Turkish communities and others. The very same thing happened in LastChaos that I was developing a couple of years back, the official server source was hacked from the company and released to the open public. Not even a month later all public private development for that game perished. Which raises the question, how do you make the community more dynamic to pull in more activity. I personally think there's more to be thought about than just user groups.

Long story short, the aforementioned. If people prove themselves by submitting content and you feel as if they would fit in that group then you could add them.